Curse

lennymon · Jan 23, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

What I don't get is why everyone insists on using hornbows with sundering and penetrating. While it's true that hornbows do have inherent AP, it's also true that it doesn't stack with the AP from skills. Go shortbow powah!

Wakka · Jan 23, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

What I don't get is why everyone insists on using hornbows with sundering and penetrating. While it's true that hornbows do have inherent AP, it's also true that it doesn't stack with the AP from skills. Go shortbow powah!

Yea i've been wondring that. How fickle the GW community is eh?

Amy Awien · Jan 23, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

What I don't get is why everyone insists on using hornbows with sundering and penetrating. While it's true that hornbows do have inherent AP, it's also true that it doesn't stack with the AP from skills. Go shortbow powah!

Theoretically, a one second activation time is a one second activation time, no matter what bow you use, a hornbow or a shortbow. And if so, a hornbow would attack as fast as a shortbow, and if Wiki is right about the way the AP's stack, they would do more damage:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWWIKI

There are two sources of armor penetration, base armor penetration and bonus armor penetration:
Base armor penetration is a set armor penetration value which is usually listed in game with text such as "this attack has 20% armor penetration." Base armor penetration does not stack, and only the largest value is used for any single hit. Sources include:

The Strength attribute, Primal Rage, Penetrating Chop and Penetrating Blow
Penetrating Attack and Sundering Attack
Spear of Lightning
Many Air Magic spells
Warrior's Might

Bonus armor penetration is an additional armor penetration value which is usually listed in game with a preceding plus sign, such as "+20% armor penetration." Bonus AP does stack with base AP and other sources of bonus AP. Sources include:

Sundering weapon upgrades
Judge's Insight
Sundering Weapon
Hornbow-type bows

Wakka · Jan 23, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Don't trust wiki ^^

Also you wont be using attack skills all of the time

lennymon · Jan 23, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Also we know that the speed issue isn't true for barrage, so why would it be true for these? As far as AP stacking, those cases are true, but the inherent mod on the horn bow only works for non-skills as far as I'm aware.

Wakka · Jan 23, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

As far as AP stacking, those cases are true, but the inherent mod on the horn bow only works for non-skills as far as I'm aware.

It works with Sundering and Penetrating Shot.

I tested it, I could do screenshots and tables and stuff if you really wanted.

lennymon · Jan 23, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I'm ok with you saying it, I had always been laboring under the apparently false impression that they didn't stack. Coolios, time to clean off my shadow bow and old trusty mursaat hornbow.

Epinephrine · Jan 23, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

Also we know that the speed issue isn't true for barrage, so why would it be true for these? As far as AP stacking, those cases are true, but the inherent mod on the horn bow only works for non-skills as far as I'm aware.

Barrage doesn't have a fixed activation time, it has a short recharge. It thus takes different amounts of time to attack with depending on the bow. The argument for the hornbow with barrage was based on the recharge being less than the aftercast, and the apparent breaking of the animation cycle with other bows - testing however showed that this wasn't important, and that faster bows are better for barrage damage.

Needling Shot is a good example, once target is below 50% it provides the same RoF on all bows. Theoretically then it would provide an advantage to the Hornbow, but since the damage is armour ignoring, it doesn't.

Tyla · Jan 23, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Overall - these buffs made a sexy ranger DPS!

Amy Awien · Jan 23, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Yeah, well, if you try hard you can put something down in 8 seconds.

Wiki information can be verified

You can always switch to a flat- or shortbow when not using this high-frequency PA/SA/PS combo.

Now, test-results.

Bow: Short bow and Horn bow, Vampiric string, Grip of defense (no interference) and +15/-5 inscription.

Me: [wiki]Penetrating Attack[/wiki], [wiki]Sundering Attack[/wiki]: 20%AP +19 bonus @16 Marks
Ogden: [wiki]Judge's Insight[/wiki].
Target: 60AL

I've only noted the critical hits.

Auto Attack
Shortbow: 63
Hornbow: 70

Penetrating/Sundering
Shortbow: 96
Hornbow: 105

Judge's Insight
Shortbow: 77
HornBow: 86

Judge's Insight + Penetrating/Sundering
Shortbow: 114
HornBow: 124

They stack, it appears Wiki might be correct, or at most one of the used sources for AP is the non-stacking base AP.

Base damage verification:

A critical hits for 1.41 x max-damage
16 Marks yields a 68 AR, against 60 AL this calculated to 2^((68-60)/40) = 1.15 x damage.
Customized bow ... 1.2 x damage
Inscription: 1.15 x damage
Net damage: 28 * (1.41 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.15) = 28 * 2.24 = 62.8 ... OK.

Shortbow + JI: 20% AP on 60 AL is -12AL or 1.23 x base-damage = 77.3 ... OK

Shortbow + PA/SA: 20% AP on 60 AL is -12AL or 1.23 x base-damage = 77.3 + 19 = 96.3 ... OK - the armor ignoring(!?) bonus damage is not AP-ed.

Shortbow + JI+PA/SA: 40%AP on 60AL is -24AL or 1.52 x base-damage = 95.2 + 19 = 114.2 ...OK.

Hornbow: 10%AP on 60AL is -6AL or 1.11 x damage = 69.7 ... OK
Hornbow + JI: 30%AP on 60AL is -18AL or 1.37 x damage = 85.8 ... OK.
Hornbow + PA/SA: 30%AP on 60AL is -18AL or 1.37 x damage = 85.8 +19 = 104.8 ... OK.
Hornbow + JI + PA/SA: 50%AP on 60AL is -30AL or 1.68 x damage = 106 +19 = 125 ... OK (-1 ??).

Edit: Damage from Read the Wind, Favorable Winds, Kindle Arrows and Ignite Arrows isn't taken into the AP calculation either.

lennymon · Jan 23, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Wow, in my head I always think with the 3 numbers (energy cost-activation time-recharge time) whenever I think of a skill. For barrage, I'm not sure why but my mental image has always been 5-1-1... it never made sense of course since the activation IS far longer than that. Things are far more clear to me now... lol

Amy Awien · Jan 23, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

It appears that only the activation time matters most, PA/QS/SA makes a nice cycle, and without the aftercast that plagues Punishing Shot. Fits nice also with Forked Arrow: FA/PA/QS/SA/QS/PA and FA is ready again. Hornbow or Shortbow looks rather the same in timing.

distilledwill · Jan 24, 2008, 03:23 AM // 03:23

What about taking into account a buff from another profession to fuel the energy needed to spam the new buffed attacks, rather than investing in [skill=text]Prepared Shot[/skill] as an elite.

I have been considering a setup including these:

Sundering Weapon Weapon Spell. For 4...9 seconds, target ally's next 3 attacks have 10% armor penetration and cause Cracked Armor for 5...17 seconds.
5e 1cast 10recharge

Body Shot Bow Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5...17 damage. If it hits a foe with Cracked Armor, you gain 5...9 Energy.
5e 8recharge

More energy return at lvl 12 Marks, less damage, but remember that you have armour pen and cracked armour on the foe? Plus you don't need to invest all that much in communing to make sundering weapon worthwhile, I think its worth a shot.

Amy Awien · Jan 24, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

It's worth a try. I was wondering if the effect from sundering weapon is applied before that attack skill, you could have body shot apply the condition and take advantage of it.

Wakka · Jan 24, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Wiki information can be verified

Its best to do so before posting. It turned out to be right this time, but you would be surprised. Wiki's great for missions and quests and what not but when it comes to mechanics people just assume thier the same as another mechanic (which could have been wrong before they even looked at it lol) and it ends up like chinese whispers, at the end it will become completly twisted and far from the truth.

^^

Scourgey · Jan 24, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

If you're going to be using a horn bow, I would advise against using skills with a normal attack speed, the difference is quite noticeable, unless you're planning on it as the start of a spike.

What Amy Awien said is correct regarding Horn bows, the 10% AP stacks.

spun ducky · Jan 24, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

What about taking into account a buff from another profession to fuel the energy needed to spam the new buffed attacks, rather than investing in [skill=text]Prepared Shot[/skill] as an elite.

I have been considering a setup including these:

Sundering Weapon Weapon Spell. For 4...9 seconds, target ally's next 3 attacks have 10% armor penetration and cause Cracked Armor for 5...17 seconds.
5e 1cast 10recharge

Body Shot Bow Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5...17 damage. If it hits a foe with Cracked Armor, you gain 5...9 Energy.
5e 8recharge

More energy return at lvl 12 Marks, less damage, but remember that you have armour pen and cracked armour on the foe? Plus you don't need to invest all that much in communing to make sundering weapon worthwhile, I think its worth a shot.

I messed around with this in RA a few days ago you gain the energy always from that combo so it can be decent energy management.

Grammar · Jan 25, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWWIKI

There are two sources of armor penetration, base armor penetration and bonus armor penetration:
Base armor penetration is a set armor penetration value which is usually listed in game with text such as "this attack has 20% armor penetration." Base armor penetration does not stack, and only the largest value is used for any single hit. Sources include:

* The Strength attribute, Primal Rage, Penetrating Chop and Penetrating Blow
* Penetrating Attack and Sundering Attack
* Spear of Lightning
* Many Air Magic spells
* Warrior's Might

Bonus armor penetration is an additional armor penetration value which is usually listed in game with a preceding plus sign, such as "+20% armor penetration." Bonus AP does stack with base AP and other sources of bonus AP. Sources include:

* Sundering weapon upgrades
* Judge's Insight
* Sundering Weapon
* Hornbow-type bows

So wiki is wrong?

According to wiki, AP from hornbows and bowstrings will stack with each other, but neither will stack with Penetrating/Sundering Attack.
But Amy Awien's test numbers suggest otherwise.
According to those test results, AP from hornbows does indeed stack with Penetrating/Sundering Attack (30%AP total), which is in direct contradiction with wiki.

Stormlord Alex · Jan 25, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

So wiki is wrong?

According to wiki, AP from hornbows and bowstrings will stack with each other, but neither will stack with Penetrating/Sundering Attack.
But Amy Awien's test numbers suggest otherwise.
According to those test results, AP from hornbows does indeed stack with Penetrating/Sundering Attack (30%AP total), which is in direct contradiction with wiki.

Hmm... I think you're misreading

I can't see any contradictions, Penetrating/Sundering shots are base pen, and wiki clearly states:

Quote:

Bonus AP does stack with base AP and other sources of bonus AP.

Which is what is shown in the numbers, apparently.

Quote:

According to those test results, AP from hornbows does indeed stack with Penetrating/Sundering Attack (30%AP total)

Grammar, I recommend coffee.